Tuesday, 23 December 2025

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Patricia Karvelas: Welcome to Politics Now the interview, Tim Wilson.

Tim Wilson MP: Thank you PK.

Patricia Karvelas: Who is Tim Wilson?

Tim Wilson MP: Well, who is he? He's a kid who grew up in Melbourne, in the CBD, and then
grew up on the Mornington Peninsula. What do you want to know? That's that story.

Patricia Karvelas: That's the provocative question. Who is Tim Wilson? How do you see Tim
Wilson?

Tim Wilson MP: How do I see Tim Wilson? I see Tim Wilson as a pretty complex character. You
know, I grew up in a a family that you know, was small business people, ran pubs, that kind of
shaped my worldview. I have a kind of worldview which is very live and let live about how I want
relate to other people, very non-judgmental, but has a provocative relationship to power. The
easiest way to get me to do something is to tell me I'm not able to do it and a somewhat cheeky
demeanour at times. I think that comes through pretty clearly. But someone who's also very
determined because I think you know, I can see Australian society going down a really challenging
path. I think it's going down a very challenging path. And I think it needs clear-eyed leadership of
people who want to focus on how to bring it together, who want to steer it through these difficult
times and actually build the future of the country. And I think I have a role to play in that.
Patricia Karvelas: So what led you into politics then? Because you're a bit of a political animal.
Tim Wilson MP: I'm not sure that's how I describe myself. What led me into politics was one of
my well, the first degree I studied at university, most people don't know was I studied a Bachelor
of Fine Art majoring in painting.

Patricia Karvelas: What?

Tim Wilson MP: Yes, I'm originally a painter.

Patricia Karvelas: What?

Tim Wilson MP: Yeah, and quite a good one.

Patricia Karvelas: Well, if you do say so yourself, tell me about it. Tell me about it though. That
means like what, in high school, I'm assuming, like when you were young, you liked art?

Tim Wilson MP: Yeah, so when I was in high school I did painting and print making. And when I
was and I've spoken about this previously, but as I got towards the second half of my secondary
school, I had a crisis of confidence around my sexuality, which is not a you know particularly
unique thing, but the one thing that I could control and I knew that I was good at was art. I was
struggling with keeping focus on other things and so I used that as a pathway, which I thought I
was going to use to get into TAFE, but actually got into university at Monash and so used that as
a pathway to get into there. But once I got into university, you know, I obviously lifted the veil,
shall we say, or came out of the closet or whatever expression you want to use. But I kind of got
into a heated discussion with my one of my lecturers who it was during the middle of the GST
debate and they were saying that all art materials as of Monday, because the Howard
Government had just been re-elected, we're going to go up by ten per cent. Now I can't
remember what the the actual wholesale sales tax rate was on art supplies at the time, but I
remember getting into a heated exchange and they sort of said, 'we're not sure you should be
doing this. We think you should perhaps be studying something else.' And that was sort of part of
it. It also went back to growing up in the early nineties in Melbourne and living the consequences
of the recession then. And what I remember, yes, there was obviously an economic breakdown,
but I was kind of too young to remember that or to understand that. But what I remember was the
human consequences, particularly friends who lost homes, families that broke up. And that very
much informed well what's going on, or start to inform my judgement about what's going on here,
what does this mean for society, what's the consequences of economic decline and how it breaks
apart families. And as I observed that, then worked watched the rebirth during the Kennett era
and obviously aspects of the Howard government nationally, and then at university overlaid that
with a kind of intellectual framework, shall we say. It drove me to think very strongly about what
makes for a good society and how do we want to build it, how do we and how should we use
power to empower people versus central authority and I very much landed on the let's empower
people, families and communities and small business.

Patricia Karvelas: So in high school, I want to take you back to that, you're struggling with your
sexuality, you're right. Not an uncommon story, you know, putting my hand up for a friend sure,
myself. It's pretty common and it does bring out different sides of you, right? Like, you know, you
become aware of different elements of your own character, you say painting was your thing. Art
was your thing. Did you think of yourself on the political spectrum? Were you thinking of politics?
Did you think of yourself as a kind of right winger at the time?

Tim Wilson MP: Well, I thought of myself in a liberal tradition. I wouldn't really think in terms of left
or right. But what I thought of was I thought again going back to that what I said before around
the idea of how do you build a good society, and I believe very strongly in family, community, and
small business, and that that was how you built the foundations of a good society.

Patricia Karvelas: But you were never like a lefty at school, like a lot of people are, right? It's often
a rite of passage, right?

Tim Wilson MP: No, no, I'm not one of those people who went down a path and then had this
awakening one day and then went to the extreme opposite. I've always been and I accept that
some people will contest this, but I've actually always been a sort of very kind of centre right
mainstream person. And you know, I have very deep rooted ideas about values about about
human rights and always have, and you know that some of the points where I get into arguments
with people on the left because I take those very seriously, because I also looking at the lessons
of history to look at and yes it's informed by how would people like me have been treated
throughout history and it's not just my sexuality, it's my ethnic background.

Patricia Karvelas: Which is?

Tim Wilson MP: Well I'm a quarter Armenian. And so of course the first genocide of the twentieth
century in the modern era was against the Armenians. And so it's and you know, liberals being in
the classical sense like me have been targeted by most authoritarian regimes as well, because
they're often subversive because they challenge authority. And so I just look at these sorts of
periods in history and you look at how power can be abused and it naturally leads me to be very
sceptical of central authority, government, large corporates, anybody who wants to abuse power.
Patricia Karvelas: I want to take you to the the struggle over the sexuality because I think that is a
like a really important formative part of someone's identity, especially the struggle part, right the
bit of not, what were you worried about?

Tim Wilson MP: Well, I was a kid growing up on the Mornington Peninsula at the time and it was it
was probably a more closed community than it is now. And I mean the whole world was, because
we sort of forget now that we've got devices on that I'm holding in my hand which can connect
you to anything, how much smaller the world was. But it was also just you didn't know anybody
like you, or if you did, or the only people you saw in in popular media was either, what I describe
as the funny uncle or the dying AIDS patient, and then of course we're in the back end of that era.
And but it was just the idea that you weren't going to be accepted, and so you weren't going to
be accepted in the community or the place that you were rejected from your family, but that you
had no one you could talk to about it, and that and I spoke about this in my first speech. I talked
about confronting my worst bully, and my worst bully the doubt in my own mind. And this is not
again an uncommon story. I think a lot of people who've gone through that journey will
understand that, but I think for people who haven't, they won't understand it. It's the own sense
of doubt that's the most corrosive thing to you. And so I think it was a it was an immensely
challenging period of my life. It was one that took me to one of you know, one of the most
challenging points, let's just put it that way, in my life where, you know, I genuinely questioned
whether I had a place in this world. And but it also takes you then to know fear and also to
overcome that fear. And so I think it when sometimes people look at me with my probably what
you'd say is pretty high risk appetite, and my lack of fear, it comes from having a comfort knowing
that place and knowing that I can get through it too.

Patricia Karvelas: Were you worried about the Liberal Party, the conservative side of politics and
its ability to allow you to rise?

Tim Wilson MP: Well, I was sixteen, seventeen, I was painting at the time, so no I wasn't thinking
about that.

Patricia Karvelas: As you became politically active, which you did.

Tim Wilson MP: Yeah, but actually no, I actually found when I when I joined the Liberal Party at
the age of eighteen it actually very closely correlated with when I came out. And there were
actually a lot of openly gay men, lesbian women and transgender people who were members of
the Liberal Party as well. And did I think it might potentially impact, look I'm not going to try and
pretend it wasn't, but that was a societal thing, it wasn't specific there. There was obviously a
chunk of people who are very conservative in the Liberal Party, but but no, I wasn't actually.

Patricia Karvelas: I mean I remember that time right, like we are not a dissimilar age. I remember.
Tim Wilson MP: So we're both young.

Patricia Karvelas: Yeah. The way you can flip that, but I remember th all the time you're talking
about I remember and I remember the Howard government and the Howard government was not
overly warm to the gays.

Tim Wilson MP: No, well I mean not in comparison.

Patricia Karvelas: I mean it wasn't.

Tim Wilson MP: Not not in comparison to to anything like now. And now we're sort of in this kind
of post period. Well that's how it sort of feels. So it was a different time. But did it bother me or
worry me? I mean, you're assuming that I joined because I wanted to end up sitting behind this
microphone. That actually wasn't the motivation.

Patricia Karvelas: You must have thought about it.

Tim Wilson MP: I'm not going to try and pretend I didn't think about it, but I'm not saying it was
my motivation. It was my motivation was I had a an increasingly strong view about what makes a
good society. You know, I am not somebody who's taken a full frontal lobotomy when I joined the
political party of my choice. I still very much challenge it every day. You can pick up the
newspapers and identify that. And so I didn't see that there was any dramatic conflict. I did think
that probably I sat in a component of the tradition. But it didn't bother me. But of course, as time
has gone on, there's the issues evolved, and so one of the issues of course that the party had to
confront was occurred explicitly during my time and was that was actually one of the second
most challenging periods probably of my life because you had this incredible tension of conflict
between what I would say is loyalty, loyalty to my then partner now husband, my party, the
community I was representing, and of course the promises you made to everybody and how do
you navigate and reconcile that.

Patricia Karvelas: How did you? Especially with your partner and can I name him Ryan?
Tim Wilson MP: Well Ryan is sufficiently in the public square that he can be named, that's fine.
Patricia Karvelas: I was just checking, don't want to be too overly personal, but Ryan is, you
know, handsome and smart and lovely.

Tim Wilson MP: Yes.

Patricia Karvelas: And I imagine was raising with you that he was not loving this time.
Tim Wilson MP: No, neither of us do because neither of us did because it was this point of
tension. I mean, we went into it the debate knowing that it was going to come up. It obviously was
in the first full year of when I was in Parliament. But what we wanted was resolution, and we
weren't alone in that. A lot of people who the issue affected wanted the the country to move on.
And it wasn't just about being personally so you don't like watching your live being life being
debated in the public square. But the way we dealt with it was we communicated in the same way
that I nego navigated with my party membership. I was very open, honest with them about the
conflict and the challenges. Same with obviously the parliamentary party. And we got to a point,
obviously, that resolved it. You know, was it the way that I wanted to? No. But I'm also the first to
acknowledge that because the way we resolved it, it's meant that we haven't one had a backlash.
Those who were defeated accepted the loss, but more importantly, we haven't seen any attempt
at reverse and we never will. And it's allowed the country to move on. And so that's so there are
blessings or silver linings.

Patricia Karvelas: You're often described and I know you challenge this, but as a moderate. How
do you see that label?

Tim Wilson MP: Well I'm not a big fan because firstly, the media likes to put you in the camp of
moderate or conservative. Now, I'm definitely not a conservative. The conservatives will agree
with that. But a lot of the moderates will say, well, we're not sure he's really a moderate either.
Because the reason I don't use the term moderate is because my liberalism doesn't come in
moderation. I have very strong views. And it, you know, I wrote about my book in 2020 The New
Social Contract, New Liberal Vision for Australia. But I have very assertive views about how do
you build a good society, why it's important, and I don't like falling for the idea, I think you can be
boxed in if you're defined as a moderator as kind of well, what the progressive left wants, but just
not as soppy. That's not my world view. I look at a lot of conservatives a lot of the time and go, I
think you're being soppy on various issues.

Patricia Karvelas: What are they soppy about?

Tim Wilson MP: Well, I think I don't really want this podcast to turn into an explosive interview, but
there are times where I look and go, you're just caving into what the left actually wants. And I'm
not going to get into the details on it.

Patricia Karvelas: You have to give me an example.

Tim Wilson MP: Well I'm now trying to think one off the top of my head. Because there has
definitely been ones recently, sometimes they'll certainly accept the framing of debates and I think
the one obviously that I've been vocal about recently has been the binary nature of climate policy.
And I think and I've been very clear with people that I think that we've fallen for a false choice on
that. Because I don't think the choice that people wanted to set up of pro net zero or anti net zero
is actually the correct decision in what it is we're trying to achieve in public policy. But and if you
just set up debates and accept the terms of the debate, you'll end up losing because if you're
responding, the debate by its nature is set up in the first point to be defeated. So I have an
assertive view on liberalism. I'm not afraid to stand up for it. I remember I was watching an
episode of Insiders and one commentator, Paul Sakkal made the observation that I was unique
because I'm not afraid to argue in favour of people making a profit. And I'm not but you actually
don't hear many people in this building say that anymore. I'm not afraid of standing up for people
and yeah, I actually believe that people should have aspiration, they should get wealthy. We
should build a country where people set their eyes further to the horizon and that I'm unapologetic in that.

Patricia Karvelas: There's profit. No one's arguing but there's excessive profit. I think that's often actually the binary, isn't it?

Tim Wilson MP: Well it doesn't have to be the binary.

Patricia Karvelas: Are you cool with excessive profit?

Tim Wilson MP: Well, define excessive.

Patricia Karvelas: I'm not going to.

Tim Wilson MP: Well, that doesn't give me what to work with. I accept that there's a genuine
conversation about inequality, and that I actually want a society where that's open, where people
can get ahead. One of the things I'm most concerned about is where you actually have
entrenched privilege, which makes it harder or makes it impossible for the next generation to get
ahead. And without wanting to labour it, because this is what I did write about back when nobody
was talking about this issue in in 2020 in my book, because I see this as one of the big structural
challenges for our society. If you entrench privilege, if you entrench people's position through
different components of the tax and transfer system, and don't have make sure you have open
economic systems, it denies those who want to put their energy and their effort into building their
own future, a pathway. And you know, if and I always say this if you're a party of aspiration,
you've got to be on the side of the aspiring. You've got to fight for the aspiring. Who are the
aspiring? They're the next generation and they're new Australians. And we always have to be on
their side.

Patricia Karvelas: What's your red line, a principle you hold that you will never compromise on?

Tim Wilson MP: Whew, a red line, a principle well, I'm very hard line equality before the law. And
so I sometimes get into debates. Yesterday I was talking to a rabbi about some of the debates
around free speech over years, and then my position on free speech has always been whatever
the line is, it must apply equally. And we've had debates in the past around some of the anti
discrimination law, which doesn't treat everybody equally. And it's a really important principle to
me because human history is replete with what happens when laws apply to people differently,
and give people sectional interests. I don't believe in group rights, never have, never will. However
we want to cut it, I'm very against the idea of of identity politics. And so equality before law as a
principle is extremely important to me.

Patricia Karvelas: So what would you ideally like to change then?

Tim Wilson MP: Well, actually I think one of the enduring strengths of the Australian political
system is actually that we've taken equality before the law very seriously. There's obviously been
there'll always be components of laws where there's kind of grey lines and it's how far we move
them up or down. But you know I'm not going to launch into bold policy pronouncements on your
podcast or certainly not outside of my portfolio area, but anything that seeks to shift that you'll
often see me arguing from a very hard line position of equality before law because it's just a
simple proposition that it's one of the reasons I believe in democracy so much everybody gets to
have an equal say.

Patricia Karvelas: On that principle though of equality before the law, I think about that big
debate, the 18C debate. You were part of that?

Tim Wilson MP: Sure.

Patricia Karvelas: Do you still hold those views?

Tim Wilson MP: Well do I still believe in equality before law? I think I just said yes.

Patricia Karvelas: Well no, you've just framed that in a particular way. But you know you

Tim Wilson MP: Well that was my motivation.

Patricia Karvelas: And do you remember what happened? You ended up the government actually
dumped these reforms. This was this was diabolical politically, but do you still believe it was the
right thing?

Tim Wilson MP: Well, do I still believe that we should have laws that treat people equally on the
basis of harassment? Of course I do. You know, I often say this you know, I find it extraordinary
that we have laws that deal with harassment on the basis of somebody's ethnicity, but we say go
nuts on people on the basis of their disability. I sent a submission to the Senate at the time saying
the way through this debate is to say we should set a standard that applies to everybody equally.
But I equally don't agree with the Tasmanian anti-discrimination law, which is what 18C was
designed on, where you had Catholic priests being dragged to tribunals for arguing they believe
marriage was between a man and a woman. I mean I think that's insane. It's not pluralistic, it
doesn't believe in diversity. But people first they're entitled to have difference of opinion if you
believe in diversity. But it's also the unequal application of the law. So that's the basis. I mean, my
views on those sorts of things will never change. What can politically be achieved is a different
matter. And that's obviously not a political priority for anybody right now and needs to come up
as part of a broader conversation.

Patricia Karvelas: You weren't a politician. What would you bet?

Tim Wilson MP: I think I said I'd be a painter.

Patricia Karvelas: So you would've?

Tim Wilson MP: No, I don't know. Well when I was a kid I wanted to be a marine biologist.

Patricia Karvelas: Oh there you go. But what I wanted to say about the painter thing is it's quite an
isolated practise and people who are really social struggle with it. And I find that you

Tim Wilson MP: Well I think it's why I retreated to it. Because it was an isolating practise I could
be by myself. I'm not exactly somebody absent social connection. Yeah. Obviously I had a three
year walkabout period and a part of it challenged me about what it is I do. And I did consulting
and worked with startups and that was all very interesting and entertaining, but I don't find
making money interesting.

Patricia Karvelas: Even though you believe people should be making heaps of it?

Tim Wilson MP: Well, I believe that people should be able to pursue what they want to do. And I
want to channel their energy towards the right purpose. And yeah, I mean, I'm not offended by
money. I still need it, everybody needs it. And I want people to be productive. But I'm not
motivated by it at all. And so I just kind of, every time I've gone and done things in business, it just
hasn't given that sense of fulfilment in the way that I get from public service but also for doing
things for the public good.

Patricia Karvelas: That's so interesting Tim. The actual work of making money in business is
something you don't overly love.

Tim Wilson MP: Well, I just don't find it rewarding because at the end of the day it's essential, but
the satisfaction you get from helping people is so much more rewarding. And trying to build and I
accept in this building people will have it, you know, will completely disagree with the type of
country I want to build and and that'll be amongst your audiences and there'll be people who
completely agree and there'll be huge shades in between. But it's just the most satisfying thing
that you can do. I mean it's also very taxing. It's exhausting, if you put all your energy into it, and
of course it comes with scrutiny, accountability, and it's not without huge cost.

Patricia Karvelas: Yeah. What leader do you look up to?

Tim Wilson MP: So I look up to a number of leaders, but for different things. So one of my heroes
is a woman by the name of Pauline Sabin. Have you ever heard of her?

Patricia Karvelas: Tell me more.

Tim Wilson MP: Exactly, I know. Pauline Saban was an American Republican and she fought for
the introduction of prohibition. I know.

Patricia Karvelas: I'm loving this.

Tim Wilson MP: Then changed her mind, left her party, and then led the campaign for repeal the prohibition
amendment in the US Constitution. Another one's a very distant cousin of mine, a woman by the
name of Catherine Stewart Murray. And she was an anti-suffragette who then went on and
became the first woman elected to Westminster for Scotland and was the first woman minister of
state. She resigned from her own Conservative government to try and topple her own Prime
Minister, Neville Chamberlain, to try and stop the outbreak of the Second World War. I admire,
he's not a politician,.


Patricia Karvelas: But it's two women so far.


Tim Wilson MP: Yeah, Milton Friedman because he explained economics with a smile. And I like particularly
Reagan's Ronald Reagan's sunny optimism and his communication ability, but I the political
philosophy that I think probably best anchors mine, and I think what I admire about him more and
more as is his understanding of the Australian way of life and how it fuses with politics, is actually
just the founder of my party, Robert Menzies. And you know, it's a bit of a trope to go back there,
but I just but I genuinely do feel that he has this catalysing, and not because of longevity of
service, catalysing understanding about what was the purpose of this nation. Because we're not a
nation that has this kind of story which is built on a baptism of fire of you know civil war or
anything like that. It was largely administrative. But he had this understanding of how to translate
that politically into a governing philosophy that fulfilled people's needs and obviously made
people proud to be Australian. But actually, some of his speeches, particularly in his latter years,
were really fascinating and insightful because he was deeply challenging on in a way that Labor
mischaracterised him, they liked to demonise him, but around diversity. He gave some amazing
speeches talking about new Australians and how they should be themselves. He explicitly fought
against the idea, and this is just radical. And we don't I'm not trying to project him onto more
contemporary debates, but fought against the the legal definition of marriage because he said it
should evolve with society. It's just - Wild.

Tim Wilson MP: Yeah, no, he is he's a really interesting character, but he just had this view and a
faith in democracy.

Patricia Karvelas: How do you want to be remembered?

Tim Wilson MP: I think everyone in political life would like to be remembered favourably. We all
do.

Patricia Karvelas: I think that is a truism for everything.

Tim Wilson MP: Yeah, yeah. But I I'm only really interested in being remembered for what it is that
I did. You know, one day there'll be a time and I know I'll go off this mortal coil and people will
hopefully someone will cry, hopefully my husband. But there'll be you just want to get
remembered doing what you did and hopefully people say, well at least they made a good wicket
of it. Because my view is and it does go back to my teenage years, but you know, when you go to
that deep sense of doubt to the point where you question the legitimacy of your place in this
world, it breathes into you an idea that you know your time is precious, what you have to
contribute is precious, and that you're here to do things. And so I just have this view that I'm here
and that it could end at any moment, so you've got to do everything you can. And people look at
it and go, well, he certainly didn't waste any time, did he and he and he did things that hopefully
improved people's lives, but at least he did what he believed in.

Patricia Karvelas: Do you see yourself as a future leader of the Liberal Party?

Tim Wilson MP: Look, I think there's a scenario where that can happen, but I think events will
have to turn in my favour. But I didn't come here to explicitly be the leader. I have said many times
I did come to lead though, because I do believe my country and my party needs leadership. And I
think more importantly, it needs a certain intellectual leadership about where it should be heading
and who it should be fighting for. And you know, over the next coming months, whenever this
goes to air, you'll see how I plan to go about doing that. Because I think political parties if they're
just seen as sort of custodians of political values or traditions, it's not enough. They have to be
seen to be out there fighting for people and enlivening people's sense of ambition and dreams. If
people actually then want to connect with them enough, they want to fight for them too.

Patricia Karvelas: Do you think the Liberal Party is capable of preselecting a gay man as leader?

Tim Wilson MP: We don't preselect our leader.

Patricia Karvelas: Sorry, let me ask the question again. Let me do it again because you're going
make me sound bad. I'm getting in trouble by your people, but I have to ask this. Do you think the
Liberal Party room is capable of electing a gay person, gay man, as their federal leader?
Tim Wilson MP: Well I think they're quite capable of electing a leader and whether whatever their
sexuality or anything else is completely secondary.

Patricia Karvelas: Would be irrelevant?

Tim Wilson MP: Well I'm not going to say that some people won't factor it in, as they look at any
calculus in electing a leader. But do I think it'll be the primary consideration like it was once these
days? Nah. I think it's going to be a completely different conversation about who is going to be
the answer to the problem the party faces at a time. And that's actually going to be the driver. But
I think sometimes these sorts of unique contributions that you can make can sometimes be an
asset, but sometimes it's not revealed until you get there.

Patricia Karvelas: Tim, thanks for joining me on the podcast.

Tim Wilson MP: Pleasure.