5 August 2025

EO&E.........

Raf Epstein:

Tim Wilson, good morning.

Tim Wilson:

Good morning, Raph.

Raf Epstein:

What's wrong with putting work from home into law?

Tim Wilson:

Well, the challenge when you do it is you create two classes, essentially, of workers. You have some workers who can take advantage of it and others that can't. So teachers, nurses, and tradies aren't benefiting from it. Well, of course, we know that those who are public sector workers do benefit. And of course it runs into conflict with federal law and this is what the federal government doesn't want to talk about. The state government's gone out and announced what it's done. And constitutional lawyers have said... you can't do that. So it's a stunt over substance.

Raf Epstein: 

But the two classes thing, there are tons of things. People have a whole lot of rights to different things in the workplace. It doesn't create separate classes of worker.

Tim Wilson:

Well, the question then is, what is the state government going to do to show value to teachers and nurses and tradies who are being left behind by these sorts of stunts? You know, we all support work from home. The Coalition supports work from home as part of flexible workplace arrangements, but simply putting it into law like they're doing isn't actually going to deliver the benefits to workers in the way that they're portraying, and many people are going to be left behind.

Raf Epstein:

You kept on using the phrase professional apartheid in your column for a national newspaper. Apartheid in the workplace. Does that language have a place in a debate like this?

Tim Wilson:

When we draw schisms between people and the way that it's being done, I do think it's problematic what the state government is doing, where they're saying to some workers, you're going to be covered and you're gonna get the benefits where other people are being left behind.

Raf Epstein:

You're not running away from that language. You wrote about it and tweeted it. Apartheid's a strong word, isn't it?

Tim Wilson:

Well, there are words that clearly delineate that there's a clear division within what the state government is doing where they're turning around to teachers, nurses, tradies, retail workers, and saying, you're not gonna be covered by these benefits. We see workers only through a narrow lens, which is people who turn up to offices in state government offices. That isn't the reality of the full workplace and we're not going to hide away from the problems of their plan.

Raf Epstein: 

I'm just curious. You wrote the word apartheid multiple times. You tweeted it. You won't say it.

Tim Wilson:

So, no, I'm quite happy to say it, I wrote it for a reason, because I do believe that there is a professional apartheid having an explicit division between workers. And I think this is enormously problematic. And so I think what the state government is doing in its stunt over substance is drawing a clear delineation between different types of workers.

Raf Epstein:

Tim Wilson's the Shadow Minister for Small Business. We're talking here about something I spoke to the Premier about yesterday. Some people work from home, others don't. Some people get penalty rates, others, don't, some people work Sundays, others don't. You might be saying you might have an argument that it's not practical, but the idea that it's apartheid or creating different classes of workers, that's where that's a bit of a stunt, isn't it?

Tim Wilson:

But when you've got the law explicitly drawing a division and saying you're in, you're out, that is the big difference between somebody going and doing employment on the basis of the relationship between a worker and an employee, or of course people making choices about their own employment arrangements. And this is why it's so important to be frank about the challenges of what the state government is doing. We all support working from home arrangements where employees and employers work together to find arrangements [that] work best for them but when you create distinctions in the way they're trying to do where it's covering some people but not others, I think there's a real problem with that.

Raf Epstein:

Would the Coalition or would you individually take part in a court case to oppose this?

Tim Wilson:

We haven't flagged anything along those lines. I mean, it's a state government's plan, the federal government at the moment is refusing to say anything in support of it because they know that it exceeds the state government's power. So that's a matter for them. We're not flagging this at all. We're highlighting the challenges of what happens when they treat some workers differently to others. The fact that they're making big promises which won't then be delivered to workers, particularly tradies, nurses, teachers, retail workers, and of course, people who are in the private sector.

Raf Epstein:

Do you think the people of Goldstein support the idea of work from home being a legal right? You did win on a very narrow margin, and a federal vote that was very much affected by Peter Dutton's policy and opposition to some aspects of work from home. What do you think that people of Goldstein in your seat think about work from home as a legal right?

Tim Wilson:

I had many conversations with people on the booths about exactly this. You had small business employers who were very supportive of work from home arrangements when it worked for people and for the employers, but there were other people who saw the limitations and that it made it challenging to operate their businesses. So there's a diversity of views. But we've got to make decisions that are in the best interests of public policy and, of course, of workers. And that's why finding arrangements between employers and employees works best rather than simply pulling out stunts.

Raf Epstein:

Tim Wilson is the Shadow Minister for Small Business, 1300 222 774 is the phone number. Work from home is a legal right, you can hear Tim Wilson does think it's the wrong thing and does call it professional apartheid. Just a quick one, Tim Wilson, important subject. Massive protest in Sydney about what's going on in Gaza. More than 90 weeks of protests in Melbourne about the same thing. Have politicians underestimated public feeling about Gaza?

Tim Wilson:

Well, first, we just need to be clear, Raf. I don't oppose work from home at all. I support arrangements between employers and employees. And, of course, there's a very strong number of people who have strong views about these issues. But we also know that Hamas is a terrorist-based organisation. They use Palestinians and Israelis as cannon fodder in their propaganda war. And it's important that we make sure that we don't incentivise attacks on civilians in our response.

Raf Epstein:

Nothing wrong with you telling me your views on the conflict, but slightly different question to you. Have politicians underestimated the public feeling about this issue? There was a huge protest in Sydney, consistent protests here. Have you underestimated the public feeling?

Tim Wilson:

Not at all. I'm very conscious of the fact that people are getting beamed into their homes on a daily basis, online, through social media, through traditional media channels, propaganda, and people are responding because nobody wants to see civilian deaths. I don't and I'll condemn them on either side.

Raf Epstein:

Starvation is starvation though it's not propaganda is it?

Tim Wilson:

Any starvation is wrong. Any civilian death is wrong, but we also need to acknowledge that there is absolutely propaganda being run by Hamas. They're very good at it. And we need to be mindful of the fact that the more we validate civilians being used in propaganda, the more likely they will be used to be used in propaganda.

Raf Epstein:

Tim Wilson, thanks for your time.

Tim Wilson:

Thanks, Raf. Take care.

ENDS