Wednesday 16 July 2025

Interview on 4BC DRIVE

Topics: Merchant fees, small business

 

EO&E……………………………………………………………………………………………………………

 

JASON MATTHEWS: To get the perspective of the Shadow Minister for Small Business, we're joined by Tim Wilson on 4BC Drive. Tim, welcome. Thanks for joining us.

 

TIM WILSON: Thanks for having me.

 

JASON MATTHEWS: This is just another potential kick in the guts for small business who would have forked the bill for this or the other alternative is to put the prices up for the customer at the end of the day. It's a loss for the small business, it's a loss for the consumer.

 

TIM WILSON: Well you're 100% right and that's the challenge is what the Reserve Bank is putting forward is only going to increase costs for small business and they just can't afford it right now. And they also can't to pass it on to the consumer because the consumer is already stretched and when these costs are going to be passed on to them, it's going to increase the pressure they feel in their household bills. Now, all these fees ultimately aggregate up to the big financial institutions, particularly big banks but some big international financial institutions. Where the government should be putting the pressure on is on them. I mean it's to make sure that they're not gouging because many of them charge very high fees. They make profits out of these very high fees and it's putting a lot of pressure on small business while it can easily be absorbed by whether it's Woolworths, whether it is Coles, whether its the big retailers who don't have to deal with the same cost pressure because of scale.

 

JASON MATTHEWS: Well, they'll get the best deals, let's be honest, they will get the best deals.

 

TIM WILSON: 100 per cent.

 

JASON MATTHEWS: I give you an example of how it works in our business, I get a I think it's a Tyro machine, I should know this, a Tyro machine doesn't cost me anything per month for that, right. But as long as my transactions reach a certain amount during the month, right, and we don't have to pay anything. But if that goes away, I've to pay sixty-something dollars a month. Plus I've got to pay for every single transaction that goes to the bank. The bank is not going to miss out on a cent, nor is Tyro. It's the small business.

 

TIM WILSON: Correct and that's why one of the solutions to this challenge is that there shouldn't be a scalability benefit so that whether it's Coles, whether it's Woolworths, whether it's a large international corporate, they shouldn't be getting advantage over a small business simply because they've got that footprint where there are fees that are being charged, it should be a neutral environment so that small business isn't losing out simply because it's your mum and your dad's shop, or it's somebody who's a startup that wants to get ahead and wants to be part of a competitive economy, more importantly, but might be servicing a niche section of customer base, but who also might be just servicing people in a neighborhood. But this is where the government's gotta step up. It's gotta lead, and it's gotta be part of solving this problem, because if not, it's small businesses and customers that are gonna get slugged.

 

JASON MATTHEWS: So as Shadow Minister for Small Business, what specific protections or reforms do you believe absolutely need to be in place before any surcharge ban goes ahead and to genuinely safeguard small businesses?

 

TIM WILSON: I think the most important thing is that the Treasurer, Jim Chalmers, picks up the phone to the big banks and, you know, groups like AMEX and Visa and the internationals and says, we're on the side of small business, we are going to have a proper consultation but also involves saying you can't have an environment that favors the big supermarket chains, the big retailers, while you're going to punish small business and customers who support small business. So what's the competitive neutral environment, because we don't have one at the minute and you're passing on advantages and helping the big corporates while it's the guys on the high streets and the main streets of the capital cities of this country or the small towns in this country and the rural towns in this country who are going to be most affected.

 

JASON MATTHEWS: I can't see Jim Chalmers doing that. I mean, I've never known the Labor government to any Labor party to support small business. I've never known that.

 

TIM WILSON: Well, the Labor Party has a corporatist worldview. They like the unions, big business and big government to get in the room and negotiate a deal that favors them and small business doesn't fit into their frame of thinking. So I agree with you. That's why we've got to stand up. It's what we're doing. We're calling it out. But also it's not just small business, but as we've said right from the start, it's the impact it has on customers. They're already stretched in their household budgets. And so when you're not standing up for small business you're not standing up for consumer choice, you're not standing up for competition, and you're not standing up for the people who work and support small business, including the battlers on the streets.

 

JASON MATTHEWS: And, you know, people don't even want you to use cash anymore. That's one way to avoid the fees, just pay cash. But we're hardly printing it anymore. And people are being discouraged to actually use cash as well. So every way you turn everywhere, you're being pinned all these fees.

 

TIM WILSON: Yeah, well, and there's a bigger impact on that, which is we're seeing more and more cyber risk because more and more financial transactions are electronic, so the risk of hacking is higher. So it's not as though there is an important need to invest in these systems. I'm not arguing against that, but it's got to be fair and everyone's got to shoulder the burden at the moment. Small businesses are getting smashed, the big guys are getting off or they're getting scale and advantage because of it, and that's what we've got to stop. Of course, you know, I'm no different from every other Australian, I struggle to find cash in my wallet these days, half of it's ease, half it's convenience, but every time we can we go and try and back small business because they're the people who are backing themselves to be part of the future growth of this country.

 

JASON MATTHEWS: Well, Tim, I want you to stand up for small business as the shadow minister and get in there and make some noise and please do not accept this. We need to do something about it.

 

TIM WILSON: That is absolutely fine, happy to do so, and we'll keep going. So thanks for having me on.

 

JASON MATTHEWS: Tim Wilson, Shadow Minister for Small Business, joining us this afternoon.

 

ENDS