Friday, 9 October 2026

Topics: ATO credit card ban; surcharges; small business.

E&OE……………………..

Michael McLaren: Tim Wilson, the Shadow Treasurer. I guess he gets a free kick on this one. He's with me. Hi, Tim.

Tim Wilson: G’day, Michael.

Michael McLaren: What a mess.

Tim Wilson: Complete mess, but a completely foreseen mess. The ATO advised the small businesses of the country with eight hours’ notice they were going to ban credit card payments. They gave the government further notice than that, they did nothing, and they've now been forced into a humiliating backdown because they've been, basically, forced to listen to the small businesses of the country who have been screaming about the decision that's been made.

Michael McLaren: Well, this is it. Now, I mean, we've seen over the last fortnight or so, I think, Tim, the government, in essence claiming, credit for this decision, and now today, and in subsequent days, no doubt, they'll say, oh, no, this is the Independent Reserve Bank, this is the Independent ATO. We're just coming in here like the white knight to save you. I mean, you can't have it both ways.

Tim Wilson: You can't have it both ways, and only this morning you had Penny Wong out there saying they didn't have the power to get the ATO to act. Yesterday you had Andrew Charlton, the Cabinet Secretary, out there arguing that they agreed with the ATO decision. Now, the treasurer has come in, rebuked Wong, rebuked Andrew Charlton, and forced an overturn because it's quite clear that this was having a serious political impact. But frankly, it's the cash flow crunch on small business that's the real issue, and I think they just simply didn't understand the implementation issues of this change, like they didn't with their budget, they made a series of big statements about new taxes, didn't understand the consequences on small business. We're now up to five backdowns from this Treasurer this year.

Michael McLaren: Yes, those backdowns from him, where are they coming from? Because I don't know they're coming from him. Is he being pressured from Anthony Albanese, do you think?

Tim Wilson: I think so. I think the Prime Minister is getting pretty frustrated with his Treasurer. We’ve had four backdowns from the Federal Budget alone, a lot of song and dance on Budget night, but as the details have come out, there's been backdowns. I'm not ruling out there won't be further ones coming as well because they still haven't figured out how to deal with early-stage startups, they still haven't figured out how they're going to impose their changes to trusts as well. So, I think the Prime Minister is trying to politically manage his trainwreck Treasurer.

Michael McLaren: Yes, okay, so I get texts from people, though, when we talk about this very issue and even before this change in the backdown today, Tim, so look, the banks make a lot of money, why on earth are they even charging people the surcharge? I mean, surely, they can absorb this. I mean, I'm not sure a government can demand that, or, in fact, should demand that a bank does absorb it. But I mean, what's your sort of response to the and there are a number of people out there that say, look, maybe we're missing the bigger picture here as it is.

Tim Wilson: No, I think there's a serious conversation around aspects of that. The banks are making record profits. We know that. They need to have systems in place that protect security. That costs money, and I'm not disputing that. So, I don't think it's unreasonable that there is some cost. But at the same time, they give supermarkets bulk purchasing arrangements where they get because of volume, they get a lot cheaper fees than the small business gets, and if gets and if the if the government wants to do something constructive, it would turn around and say we've got to level the playing field between the small business and the big supermarket chains and Bunnings who are all getting much cheaper prices than the corner store, the cafe, the hairdresser, or of course the tradie.

Michael McLaren: Just quickly, Tim, the Prime Minister, my understanding is he has a bachelor’s degree in economics from the University of Sydney. I don't know how, but he's got it. You would have thought that when you look at the budget and now this and all these other economic decisions that have been made, certainly ever since they won that thumping 94 seat term, you sort of do wonder if any of that economics degree does ever bubble forth. I mean it seems to me that very obvious consequences are being missed left, right and centre with these policies.

Tim Wilson: I think that's right, and I think what it shows you is where their priorities are. Their focus is on how they maximize the amount of tax revenue they raise because they're addicted to spending. Until you address a government addicted to spending, they're just going to keep finding ways to fill the black holes in their budget, and there's no serious appetite for economic reform. I put the question, what would Paul Keating do in the situation when we have record small business insolvencies, people walking out the door, crashing consumer confidence, et cetera, et cetera, and he'd look at the situation, and he’d say, well, ultimately this is an opportunity to drive reform to improve the state of the country. Jim Chalmers just looks at it and says, well, how do I increase the tax on Australians, so I get to empower myself to make more decisions, not back the Australian people and small business.

Michael McLaren: Well, I thought he did his PhD on Paul.

Tim Wilson: Well, he did it on the rhetoric of Paul Keating, not on the substance, and so, there's a there's a gulf there. But that's the point. I think he likes the idea of the Keating government, I don't think he understands it.

Michael McLaren: Just finally then, I mean, let's assume you guys win government or you're there with One Nation or whatever. I mean, what do you do about this credit card surcharge policy? I mean is it possible to scrap it? Or is it too late by then?

Tim Wilson: Well, we've said the credit card ban by the ATO, we're going to move legislation next week to make it a permanent feature because it's just not acceptable for the government to not be prepared to absorb the costs that they’re asking small business to. That, or we've got to be honest with people and acknowledge that this has a cost, and we've got to figure out a way to make it work that's sustainable. We can't have it where the government says there's one rule for them and a completely different one for the small businesses around the country.

Michael McLaren: Is it easy just winding it back to where we were last week prior to 1 October and say right well, you know, the cost doesn't have to be absorbed. It's not what you see on the ticket, it's what you pay. They can charge the surcharge like we used to do.

Tim Wilson: Ultimately, I think small business should be able to make their own decisions, but when it comes down to the government, you know, we have a pretty standard practice which we expect businesses to accept legal tender, and I think the same broad principle needs to apply to government.

Michael McLaren: All right, good to speak. Thanks for jumping on, Tim. Appreciate your time.

Tim Wilson: Thanks, Michael.

[ENDS]