Monday 21 July 2025

E&OE..............................................................

Patricia Karvelas:

I want to bring in the Shadow Minister for Employment, Industrial Relations and Small Business Tim Wilson who is returning to Parliament after well missing for three years. Didn’t win your seat last time, won it this time. Welcome to the program.

Tim Wilson:

Thank you PK.

Patricia Karvelas:

This penalty rates legislation will you vote it down?

Tim Wilson:

Well Patricia we haven't even seen the legislation yet. We're waiting for the Minister. And we're looking forward to seeing it we’ve asked for a briefing and hopefully we'll be able to see it once we've taken it through our internal processes and give it a proper assessment because you know the issues of course making sure Australian’s wages go up is important to us. Real wages have gone down under the Albanese Government. It's important to listen, to understand, to make decisions in the national interest. And that's the basis in which we will engage.

Patricia Karvelas:

So are you saying you've got an open mind?

Tim Wilson:

Well I want to see the legislation first. You never know what sneaky, tricky games the Government likes to play. And so before I see the legislation we're not going to commit. We have our own processes around considering and assessing legislation always because you want to know what's in the detail and how it's going to be approached.

Patricia Karvelas:

But the principle, we know the principle, the principle has historically been a principle that your side of politics has not been enthusiastic about the idea of enshrining now penalty rates so there's no real reduction if there's a buyout of some kind. What do you make of the principle here? Absolutely respecting that there might be some detail you're uncomfortable with but the idea?

Tim Wilson:

Well the principle is actually that Fair Work normally makes these decisions around, award arrangements. It's not actually done in legislation. And so what the Government is engaged in is this sort of legislative victory lap around these sorts of issues when there's actually no threat or no risk.

And so they're seeking to insert things in legislation that is normally done in an arrangement through an independent commission to actually make sure that the best interests of workers are put for the political interests of the Government. That's why we're being cautious about looking at this legislation. We want to see the detail because our focus on how we actually make sure we get the best outcome for workers but also make sure we get the best outcome for small businesses because we actually want to see small businesses thrive.

We want them to employ more Australians and give them the best chance to get ahead because that's actually how we get the best outcome for all Australians. We know last week unemployment is rising. We have record business insolvencies. This is not a healthy space for the economy. We've got an economic sinkhole that's emerging and we do not want this because it will not end here.

Patricia Karvelas:

Okay. So back to the principle, which I'm trying to get you on. You've been pretty clear that you think it's the Fair Work Commission that should be doing this, not legislation. So your instinct is to oppose it?

Tim Wilson:

No no the Fair Work Commission has the authority now to do these things. The government is the one who's actually bucking the principle and bucking the existing-

Patricia Karvelas:

Yeah so you don’t think the legislation should be put or passed in the Parliament?

Tim Wilson:

They are simply the ones bucking it. They're the ones who have to make the case around what they're seeking to do. And that's why it's so important to see the legislation.

As I said, I think the Government is engaging in a sort of legislative victory lap, they're not actually focused on the core issue, which is if small business does well, then real wages can go up and we can improve the economic circumstances for every Australian where we can see the exact opposite of what has been happening, where we've seen real wages fall, we can see real wages grow. So Australian household can actually get ahead. That's what we want instead to address the problems that the Government has created. They're having to create these legislative solutions rather than addressing the root cause of the problem.

Patricia Karvelas:

Okay so now in your new role, the coalition has been a bit gun shy when it comes to discussing industrial relations.

Tim Wilson:

I’m right here Patricia.

Patricia Karvelas:

No, no, no, I'm not saying in fronting up, but I'm saying in putting positions. And I think that's really been the case since the WorkChoices overreach which smashed the Howard government in 2007. Do you see it as your job to rebuild the Coalition's case for industrial relations reform?

Tim Wilson:

Absolutely see it as my job to do what we need to do to build out the case for economic reform that builds the potential for small business to thrive and grow, to make it easier to employ Australians and to make sure they're well paid jobs, to be part of the future success of our country.

We absolutely need to build out that story because that's a base in which Australians thrive. That's the basis in which Australians have confidence in that their futures, they can go on and do things like save to buy home so they can go on and retire with security so they can make sure they do things like form a family. So do I say this is a critical part of my job? Absolutely I do. And proudly so.

Patricia Karvelas:

And you think the Coalition's been too timid when it comes to industrial relations?

Tim Wilson:

Well the terms of industrial relations legislation is often being dictated to by the Labor Party that has gone way back past where reforms were even introduced by the Keating Government.

Patricia Karvelas:

And yet it was thumping victory. So is it the case perhaps the workers like it?

Tim Wilson:

Well I think what it's a signal of is that we need to be strong. We need to be confident because the Albanese economic sinkhole that we now have, which is achieving record business insolvencies, real wages have declined. And we're not in a situation where, we're getting Australians feeling like they're getting ahead, no matter how hard they work, is not the basis in which people are feeling confident about their futures, whether they're going on to form family saving to buy a home and being able to retire with security. And in fact, what we've actually got instead is government now actively talking about new taxes that they didn't take to the election. And that is raising real concerns amongst the Australian community.

Patricia Karvelas:

There's a couple of things I'd like to ask you about not in your portfolio but certainly something that significant the HECS debt reduction. Before the last election there was a lot of talk about the idea being elite. Do you think it's elite to go to university?

Tim Wilson:

Well I've been to university as you know Patricia and I presume you have as well, ah there you go. And a lot of the my constituents have as well. And of course Australians who have had the opportunity but the overall majority of Australians have not gone to university so I think it's part of making sure the rich tapestry of our country-.

Patricia Karvelas:

The word elite-

Tim Wilson:

These are not words that I would use, the ones you put forward. I say an Australia successful is one where young Australians can aspire to their best dreams and their best hopes. And some people want trade qualification and want economic opportunity where they can go and get a secure job, through a partnership, an apprenticeship or through a TAFE. Everybody lives out their aspiration in their own ways. But the question is are we going to back them to be able to live out their hopes and their dreams? And that to me has always been core to the liberal vision and the success of a liberal democratic society.

Patricia Karvelas:

Was the Prime Minister's trip to China indulgent?

Tim Wilson:

Well the Prime Minister has a responsibility to engage with foreign nations. No one's arguing with that at all. So those aren't ways I would use.

Patricia Karvelas:

Okay so the idea that it's a working holiday, I was a bit struck by those words which have been used by colleagues of yours.

Tim Wilson:

Look the Prime Minister has a responsibility to engage I just think when it comes to priorities we need to make sure that he's engaging with countries where achieving the best interests for Australia and outcomes for our country

Patricia Karvelas:

Is there evidence that that's what he's doing?

Tim Wilson:

Well I think that we had really serious challenges at the moment with the United States where we have tariffs being flagged by President Trump. We need those to be properly addressed. And I would be hoping that we would see strong action on that front. We have lots of challenges in our region, of which of course China is one part of it. So he's going to make those decisions. People will judge him accordingly. But it's important to make sure that we're getting the best interests. And he's advancing our national interests right now.

Patricia Karvelas:

Barnaby Joyce saying that there needs to be opposition on net zero. What's your response to that as the party reviews net zero?

Tim Wilson:

Well I mean what what was the promise of net zero? The promise of net zero was that prices would decline, we would see a reduction in emissions and of course there would be no issues around grid stability, around energy. The simple fact is the Government's own data shows that its prices have risen, emissions have risen and of course we have big issues around grid stability. I'm simple on this I mean I believe in net zero price increases. I believe in net zero outages. And of course I want to see net zero emissions reduction. So I want to say what we can do to make sure that we get the outcomes we need-

Patricia Karvelas:

But is opposing net zero something you think that the Party should do?

Tim Wilson:

I think we should be focused on how we actually get zero price increases, net zero outages and of course net zero emissions-

Patricia Karvelas:

Is pulling out of the Paris Agreement something you think you should do?

Tim Wilson:

Well, at first I don't think that's what he said that's something you put forward-

Patricia Karvelas:

He mentioned Paris, that’s absolutely something he put-

Tim Wilson:

–It's very important that we go through a proper process but we have to make sure that the Government is actually delivering it because you know the Government has made commitments. Prices are going up, emissions are rising. And of course we have less stability. At the same time they've done things like increase the number of coal mines, extend the life of gas turbines. We've had you know the Teals go on to vote for $3 billion of new coal and gas subsidies under their current policy proposal. So there's a lot of talk but the reality of what's actually being delivered is something very different.

Patricia Karvelas:

Okay. Thanks for joining us.

ENDS